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31  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / Re: Ribbon Power? on: November 28, 2007, 05:18:46 PM
So the idea is not powering from the ground up, but from the top down.  The whole thing is the ground wire.

How much electricity is grounding down the wire is the big question?

Very little.  It is not accidental that our machines do not run off static electricity.

Solar cells produce an electrical current rather than static electricity so two wires are needed.

When given a choice of paths electricity splits between the two paths according to their resistance.  The climber's motor will probably have a much higher resistance than the cable so almost no static electricity would go through it.
32  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / Re: Ribbon Power? on: November 26, 2007, 10:10:11 PM
Instead of using fuel to brake into GEO, it could be more economical to reenter directly to the ground and then take the SE back up, depending on the price of fuel in outer space. It would be nicer for the astronauts, too. They would be home a week earlier.

That depends on the weight of the spacecraft.  If it is more than 20 tons the SE can only lift it in parts.

Some estimates of Mars transfer vehicles come out at 200 to 400 tons.

The current design of the Orion, like the Apollo Command Module, throws away the service module just before reentry.
33  General Topics / News & Commentary / Re: Desert 1/2 gigawatt on: November 26, 2007, 09:29:55 PM
A receiver of similar size would be needed for the microwaves from a solar power satellite.  It would also need operators and repairmen.
34  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / Re: Ribbon Power? on: November 26, 2007, 06:11:32 PM
Fly back to ribbon and unload the people & return cargo at GEO.
This needs more detail.

The slide trip cannot possibly be done in reverse.

Can I interest you in a Lunar Space Elevator?
It can be docked with at EML2 or EML1.
35  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / Re: Ribbon Power? on: November 26, 2007, 06:02:49 PM
Docking at GEO is difficult enough. Now add acceleration, very high velocity, and a required 99.9% success rate. Anyone?

This is similar to parking a car, you approach the ribbon at 5 miles per hour.
Note: Crashes depend on relative speed not absolute speed.

For practical purposes there are only two places the Space Elevator can be docked with - on the ground and at GEO.  The spacecraft has to fly back to GEO.  This is one of the reasons it has to refuel.

Method. The spacecraft returns from the Moon or Mars and goes into a circular orbit at GEO or GEO height +/- 1000 km.  It then inches around the orbit until it reaches the Space Elevator.  It applies a delta_v of less than 0.003 km/s (3 m/s = 10.8 km/h = 6.7 mph) to bring the space craft to a halt and the correct height.  Dock with the waiting ribbon, space station or climber.

Something similar can be done with spaceships in LEO using the reverse of the GEO Dive, see the table on my website.
http://uk.geocities.com/am.swallow@btopenworld.com/HTML/Dive_Height.html

The reverse of the High Dive may work but I am have not calculated the forces on the spacecraft at the apogee (top) of the elliptical orbit nor the size of the docking window(s).
36  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / Re: Ribbon Power? on: November 25, 2007, 09:00:46 PM

There is one thing that might be worth docking the SE for: You could use the SE to launch very large spacecraft from GEO to higher orbits, including moon, Mars, and other solar orbits. Even though the SE may only be capable of lifting 20 tons from the ground, you could attach a much larger mass at GEO and let it slide outwards, unpowered and unbraked, until any desired velocity is obtained.


So build spacecraft in a dry dock near GEO.
Tow it to the SE.
Fuel the spacecraft and put the people & cargo on board.
Launch by sliding up the ribbon.  A smaller climber will be needed at the start of the slide.
The ribbon has low rather than zero friction, so a method of cooling the ribbon and slider may be needed.
Release at the correct time and the correct height.
Fly to the Moon.

Fly back to ribbon and unload the people & return cargo at GEO.
Send the people down to Earth.
Inspect the spacecraft and scrap if warn out.
Repair, refuel and put more people and cargo on board.
Launch again.
Fly to destination
Return.

Repeat.
37  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / Re: Ribbon Power? on: November 25, 2007, 08:41:07 PM
This webpage contains a table of delta_vs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta-v_budget

Watch out for the entries where the to and from LEO figures are different.  In the "to LEO" figures use of something like aerobraking is assumed.

GEO to low lunar orbit has a delta_v of 2.05 km/s
LEO to low lunar orbit has a delta_v of 4.04 km/s

Ration of fuel required exp(2.05) : exp(4.04) = 7.77 : 56.8 = 1:7.3

GEO to EML1 has a delta_v of 1.47 km/s

Since spaceships can be parked near GEO the fuel and the people can go up in separate climbs, allowing the delivery of 40 tons of supplies to the spacecraft.
38  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / Re: Ribbon Power? on: November 25, 2007, 03:17:33 PM
Not docking with the SE also allows more efficient parking places, such as L1 or an Earth-moon transfer orbit. GEO is actually quite a detour when going between Earth and moon, delta-V wise.

EML2 (=L2) is a better rendezvous point than L1 since the Moon's gravity can be used both as a brake on the outward journey and as an accelerating force when returning to the Earth (or on to Mars).

However you and fuel still have to get from the SE to the spacecraft.  If the spacecraft is at GEO even undocked it will stay near the ribbon, any other height and it soon drifts half an orbit away.

GEO may be the only practical docking point but there are plenty of drop/throw points depending on where you wish to go.

39  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / Re: Ribbon Power? on: November 24, 2007, 09:23:06 PM
Trip 1
Person uses a rocket to raise spacecraft to orbit.  Uses a lot of fuel [fuel_A].
Flies go to the Moon. Uses [fuel_B]
Performs his job.
Flies back to Earth orbit. Uses [fuel_C]
Transfers from space craft to Space Elevator climber.  It is hard to do this transfer anywhere other than at GEO.  It is also hard to transfer without docking.
Descends in the climber.
Has a holiday, talks to the boss - whatever.

Trip 2
Gets into a climber and ascends the Space Elevator to GEO.
Transfers to docked spacecraft.  It is hard to transfer to a spacecraft that is not docked.
Refuels spacecraft.
Flies to Moon again. Uses [fuel_B]
Performs his job.
Flies back to Earth orbit [fuel_C]

Trip 1 uses fuel_A + fuel_B + fuel_C
Trip 2 uses fuel_B + fuel_C

Trip 3 uses fuel_B + fuel_C
etc.


No Space Elevator
Trip 2 uses fuel_A + fuel_B + fuel_C
So does Trip 3

So once the spacecraft is in orbit the Space Elevator allows a saving of fuel_A per Moon trip.

Also due to the strength of the Earth's gravity fuel_A weights more than the spacecraft + fuel_B + fuel_C.
40  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / Re: Ribbon Power? on: November 23, 2007, 08:26:06 PM
Having returned to the Earth's surface a delta_v of about 10 km/s is required to get the spacecraft back up to LEO.  That requires a lot of fuel.  Fuel that is saved by simply docking with the space elevator.

Apollo discarded the lunar vehicles.  Project Constellation has a similar plan.
41  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / Re: Ribbon Power? on: November 23, 2007, 04:36:00 PM
A use once spacecraft like Apollo can use a heat shield to get back to the Earth since the space craft is going to be thrown away.  This does not apply to a reusable Moon Transfer Vehicle.

For two trips to the Moon

a) Use once craft

Trip 1 - launch from Earth.
Cabin
Service Module
Transfer LEO to Lunar Orbit Stage
Lunar Lander
Lunar Ascent Stage
People and consumables
Fuel Return Cabin and Service Module to Earth
Fuel Lunar Ascent Stage
Fuel Lunar Lander
Fuel enter Lunar orbit
Fuel Transfer Stage
Fuel Earth to LEO Cabin and Service Module
Fuel Earth to LEO Lunar Lander
Fuel Earth to LEO Lunar Ascent Stage
Fuel Earth to LEO for fuel Return Cabin and Service Module to Earth
Fuel Earth to LEO for fuel Lunar Ascent Stage
Fuel Earth to LEO for fuel Lunar Lander
Fuel Earth to LEO for fuel enter Lunar orbit
Fuel Earth to LEO for fuel Transfer Stage

Trip 2 - launch from Earth.
Cabin
Service Module
Transfer LEO to Lunar Orbit Stage
Lunar Lander
Lunar Ascent Stage
People and consumables
Fuel Return Cabin and Service Module to Earth
Fuel Lunar Ascent Stage
Fuel Lunar Lander
Fuel enter Lunar orbit
Fuel Transfer Stage
Fuel Earth to LEO Cabin and Service Module
Fuel Earth to LEO Lunar Lander
Fuel Earth to LEO Lunar Ascent Stage
Fuel Earth to LEO for fuel Return Cabin and Service Module to Earth
Fuel Earth to LEO for fuel Lunar Ascent Stage
Fuel Earth to LEO for fuel Lunar Lander
Fuel Earth to LEO for fuel enter Lunar orbit
Fuel Earth to LEO for fuel Transfer Stage


b) Use reusable craft

Trip 1 - launch from Earth.
Cabin
Service Module
Transfer LEO to Lunar Orbit Stage
Lunar Lander
Lunar Ascent Stage
People and consumables
Fuel Return Cabin and Service Module to Earth
Fuel Lunar Ascent Stage
Fuel Lunar Lander
Fuel enter Lunar orbit
Fuel Transfer Stage
Fuel Earth to LEO Cabin and Service Module
Fuel Earth to LEO Lunar Lander
Fuel Earth to LEO Lunar Ascent Stage
Fuel Earth to LEO for fuel Return Cabin and Service Module to Earth
Fuel Earth to LEO for fuel Lunar Ascent Stage
Fuel Earth to LEO for fuel Lunar Lander
Fuel Earth to LEO for fuel enter Lunar orbit
Fuel Earth to LEO for fuel Transfer Stage

Trip 2 - launch from Earth.

People and consumables
Fuel Return Cabin and Service Module to Earth
Fuel Lunar Ascent Stage
Fuel Lunar Lander
Fuel enter Lunar orbit
Fuel Transfer Stage
Fuel Earth to LEO for fuel Return Cabin and Service Module to Earth
Fuel Earth to LEO for fuel Lunar Ascent Stage
Fuel Earth to LEO for fuel Lunar Lander
Fuel Earth to LEO for fuel enter Lunar orbit
Fuel Earth to LEO for fuel Transfer Stage

Note the "Fuel Earth to LEO for ..." can be replaced by a trip up in the space elevator.  A fuel tanker climber may be useful.
42  Research / The Ribbon / Re: Cambridge 20 Gpa Ribbons on: November 22, 2007, 06:28:58 PM
This article in Chemistry World states 10 GPa.  Since the tubes are double walled the density may also need doubling.  This would result in a specific strength around 3700 kN.m/kg and Earth breaking strength of approx 380 km.  This is more than Kevlar but less than Spectra.
http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2007/November/19110701.asp
43  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / Re: Ribbon Power? on: November 22, 2007, 08:17:56 AM
Spaceships cam dock with the space elevator at GEO point so people returning from the Moon and Mars can use it to return to the Earth's surface.

Reels containing several thousand kilometres of ribbon are enormous.  There will be major problems storing them.
44  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / Re: Ribbon Power? on: November 21, 2007, 07:51:59 PM
50 m/s = 180 km/h = 112 mph
300 m/s = 1080 km/h = 671 mph
45  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / Re: Ribbon Power? on: November 16, 2007, 05:33:23 PM
See also "Power Line inside the Ribbon"
http://www.liftport.com/forums/index.php?topic=714.0

Conductivity of copper is 59.6e+6 S/m
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_conductivity
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