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691  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / Raising Unpowered Climbers on: July 23, 2006, 07:25:59 AM
The only things going passed GEO are construction equipment and interplanetary flights.  We can use special powered climbers to move both of those.

Consequently the power rollers can stop at GEO, permitting the use of complex and heavy machinery there.  GEO makes a good insertion point for additions to the GEO to counter weight cable, either by lengthening the cable or by adding an additional layer.

The GEO to LEO section can be thickened by adding thicker sections at GEO, these will eventually arrive at LEO.  The roll out can be powered by the previous section turning.

Each section is sent up as an assembly containing the new ribbon and two rollers.  Most of the ribbon is wrapped around the lower roller.  The GEO equipment attaches the pair of short inter-section cable.

The upper roller can reflect the tapering by having connection points further apart than the lower roller.

The LEO to atmosphere section needs shorter sections that have been treated with an anti-free oxygen coating.  This section may need it own removal/insertion machine.  The section of the ribbon that lives in the atmosphere will need special handling.

More power can be given to lower parts of the ribbon if two or three of the connectors contain gear boxes that allow the sections above them to be placed in neutral.
692  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / Raising Unpowered Climbers on: July 23, 2006, 06:18:45 AM
To increase power transfer and to keep the left/right pair synchronised it may be worthwhile giving the short connecting belts teeth.

In a similar vein, holes and/or teeth in the centre of the main ribbons would allow the climbers a better grip.

To last the rollers would have to be fairly hard wearing, I assume that they are hollow.

The example moves all the sections at the same speed, given the increasing mass, is this viable?  Or do we have to perform a speed for power swop?  Possibly by increasing the radius of the upper rollers.
693  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / totally strange and wacky idea thread on: July 21, 2006, 11:42:10 AM
The hubs are not balloons, they do not fly.  There are just large satellites, the thin material is simply lighter than metal allowing the same rocket to launch a bigger satellite.

They orbit about every 100 minutes which means their cables would be moving at 15,000 miles per hour, making them a little hard to catch.

The Space Elevator is based around GEO because it orbits one a day, so it does not appear to move, making it easy to catch.
694  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / Plasma radiation shield on: July 21, 2006, 10:23:55 AM
Some relevant Information

http://www3.inspi.ufl.edu/space/program/abstracts/1073.html

Magnetic Radiation Shielding An Idea Whose Time Has Returned - G.Landis (1991)
http://www.freemars.org/studies/magshield/index.html

NASA Institute Selects Pioneering Exploration Proposals – Forbes.com
http://www.forbes.com/prnewswire/feeds/prnewswire/2006/07/06/prnewswire200607061738PR_NEWS_B_NET_DC_DCTH054.html

Pointer to pdf
http://www.niac.usra.edu/studies/study.jsp?id=1356&cpnum=06-01&phase=I&last=Slough&first=John&middle=&title=Plasma%20Magnetic%20Shield%20for%20Crew%20Protection&organization=MSNW&begin_date=2006-09-01%2000:00:00.0&end_date=2007-03-31%2000:00:00.0

Andrew Swallow
695  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / totally strange and wacky idea thread on: July 21, 2006, 07:03:44 AM
A single reel going from the ground to the counter weight weighs about 20 metric tons.  Once a method of repeatedly lifting 20 tons tons to counter weight exists building a space elevator becomes a lot easier.  However getting that system stated is not easy.  Currently getting even a single reel that far out requires our most powerful (and expensive) rocket.

Even getting 20 tons to low Earth orbit requires a large rocket.

Humans are very heavy, it is not just the weight of the person but the food, water, air and machines to control the temperature.  NASA's proposed CEV weights 25 metric tons.

The International Space Station is about 350 km high.  GEO is 35,786 km away.  It is a very long way to GEO.

At 20 km a day a fit man can walk 350/20 = 18 days.  35,786 km would take him nearly 5 years.

The major challenge is how to handle or avoid all of those problems.
696  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / Plasma radiation shield on: July 21, 2006, 06:07:02 AM
Does anyone have any details on the sort of radiation we can expect in the Von Allen belts?  That is where the climbers and any satellites we drop would glow in the night.
697  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / The Oscillating SE on: July 21, 2006, 05:44:04 AM
You can simply the pivoting wheel at GEO if the same thickness ribbon is used for 50 km each side of it.

I notice that hotel and mine lifts use large wheels.  A big wheel would help keep the ribbons apart.

If the whole system is rotating about its base the counter weight and wheel may need  the occasional thrust to keep them spinning at the correct speed.  Cargos can be spun up just before being attached to the ribbon.

What do we do with the climbers when they get to the top?  Discard?  Return to Earth? Or forward to counter weight?

Getting a climber passed the wheel is a non-trivial process.  A solar powered robot could push them to the end.  Equipping either the robot or the “wheel” with an arm would assist in such transfers.

For LEO only launches a lower wheel could be used.  Possibly at 850 km for horizontal rocket launches or about 27,000 km for High Dive launches.
698  Achieving the Space Elevator / Law & Politics / Obtaining permission to launch a manned capsule on: July 20, 2006, 05:38:46 AM
Are there any defined procedures required before we launch/throw a manned capsule?  There may be questions about who regulates the sea anchor and the climbers but anything thrown from the ribbon will be the Federal Aviation Authority's responsibility.

I assume that the rocket will have to use liquid fuel because ion thrusters are too slow and solid fuel rockets cannot be shut down or restarted by the pilot.  The exact quantity of solid fuel needed is determined by the exact mass of the cargo - pure cargo can be weighted in advance, humans and animals change their weight when they eat etc.

FAA description
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FAA

European Aviation Space Agency
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Aviation_Safety_Agency

FAA website
http://www.faa.gov

FAA Design Approval
http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals

8110.4 Type Certification Order for the Design of Civilian Aircraft
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/d21193af2d37a8ba862570ab0054c104/$FILE/Order8110.4C.pdf
699  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / Raising Unpowered Climbers on: July 19, 2006, 07:24:09 AM
Belt drives were used in steam powered factories, so a lot of knowledge exists.  Here are some sources.

Kevlar mixture Vs Steel Cable
http://www.gates.com/facts/documents/Gf000203.pdf

Synchronous belts
http://www.gates.com/facts/documents/Gf000284.pdf

Other information
http://www.gates.com/facts/index.cfm?show=Engineering&location_id=3258
700  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / The Sky Platform on: July 18, 2006, 04:23:32 PM
Quote from: neil
If the ribbon is cut at 1000 kilometers = 1%, it takes 7 plus hours for the reduced tension transient to reach the counterweight, so the break only widens by a few kilometers the first 7 hours. Even after the 7 hours, the break does not widen rapidly, if the cut is at 50 kilometers = 0.05%, as it is a weak streatch reduction transient that reaches the counter weight.

Escape of the lower ribbon can be stopped by the emergency system clamping a heavy weight at GEO.  A Space Station would act as the weight.
Quote

 There is a fair chance the gap can be filled with a new section of ribbon, before the passengers even realize, that a break has occured, if we have a quick responce team. If the anchor ship (or platform) can reel out 50 kilometers of ribbon, the gap can be kept at near zero, with a special rocket powered climber that pulls out ribbon from the anchor ship reel.   Neil


Ground based rockets may have to wait for the storm that broke the ribbon to pass.  Rockets and repair material can be kept near the ribbon at GEO.

GEO to counter weight breaks are harder to handle.  The ribbon could be divided into two at GEO and each half given its own counter weight.  That way normally only half the ribbon is lost and the other part used for repair purposes.
701  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / Raising Unpowered Climbers on: July 18, 2006, 03:48:15 PM
Quote from: Nydoc
How about rocking the counterweight back and forth to make the ribbons slide past each other? Or moving the anchor station back and forth? How about having 2 anchor stations that move independently?


Since we hope to move lots of cargo around, rather than using transients we could use Standing Waves.
http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/GBSSCI/PHYS/Class/waves/u10l4e.html

To avoid the climbers getting stuck at nodes two waves are needed, chosen to ensure that there are no common nodes except at the ends.  Prime number harmonies will do this automatically.
702  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / Plasma radiation shield on: July 18, 2006, 09:10:19 AM
If this technique can protect Mars spacecraft from cosmic radiation a version may be able to protect climbers or even cargos after they have been released.

http://www.newscientistspace.com/article/dn9567-plasma-bubble-could-protect-astronauts-on-mars-trip.html

Quote
Plasma bubble could protect astronauts on Mars trip
From New Scientist. 17 July 2006 by David Shiga

A bubble of plasma could shield astronauts from radiation during long journeys through space, researchers are suggesting. If the idea proves viable, it means heavy metal protective panels could be replaced by a plasma shield of just a few grams.

Astronauts travelling beyond the Earth's orbit would be at risk of cancer and other illnesses due to their long term exposure to cosmic rays. Some of these energetic particles are spewed forth during outbursts from the Sun. Others come from outside our solar system and are more mysterious in origin.
{snip}
703  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / The Sky Platform on: July 17, 2006, 11:00:43 PM
Quote from: Nydoc
Well, if lightning does damage the ribbon, then the entire SE wouldn't be destroyed - just the bottom 1% or so.{snip}


If the ribbon is cut through the other 99% may survive but would fly off into space.  Unless rescued the passengers and crew would die when their air runs out.
704  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / The Sky Platform on: July 17, 2006, 03:45:08 PM
Quote

If that were really necessary, the ribbon could be designed 30% larger (for 26 tons rather than 20) and we would likely be much better off than with sky station.

That is a good alternative solution.  Just ensure that the climbers can handle the changeover.
Quote

But then, also, I don't think any of the following can be rejected out of hand:

* Lightening might not strike an SE which lacks a tip to accumulate charge.
* The SE might keep lightening from happening in the first place by permanently short circuiting the surrounding air column.
* The SE might be insulating and not attract lightening.
* Location and avoidance movements might reduce lightening to less than once in a thousand years.
* The SE might be able to sustain lightening strikes without damage, as if it was a lightening conductor itself.

* The SE may not have a tip but it could have two sharp edges.  Even if it is a tube, it is only a narrow tube.
* Since metal towers get hit we would be very lucky if permanent short circuiting worked but we could be lucky.  Graphite is a good conductor so some types of CNT may be.
* Even insulating things like wood and stone get hit by lightning, particularly when wet.  Note: The mining industry needs a strong insulting material, power cables that wear out after 6 weeks must cost them a fortune.
* For movement to work the storms would have to be tiny.
* A ribbon that can take lightning strikes would certainly be a good selling point.  Air ribbon and space ribbon do not have to have to use the same epoxy or coating.
Quote

The point being, at this early stage, we do not know enough about the danger of lightening to make such a drastic change of plans as a sky station.

It is fairly easy to find out more about the weather at at SE landing site.  Tether a balloon to a buoy and see what the elements do to it.  The longer we leave any changes the more expensive they get.  Until SE2 is operational replacing SE1 requires a second rocket launch -  very expensive.
705  Achieving the Space Elevator / Science & Technology / The Sky Platform on: July 17, 2006, 11:09:09 AM
An important variable in determining the weight of the bottom of the Space Elevator is the probability of being hit by lightning.  Is it zero or very low?

Genuinely zero means no protection needed.  A very, very low probability of one strike per 20 years means guaranteed destruction unless protected.

An aluminium lightning conductor weighs about 6 tonnes and needs something to support it.

http://www.blackmagic.com/ses/bruceg/EMC/rckt/rocket.html

http://www.alohaowners.com/pages/projects/lightning/lightning.htm
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