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Information Police
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« on: June 24, 2006, 09:32:36 AM » |
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If objects are going to be manufactured in orbit or on asteroids or the moon and then returned to Earth, remember, you are going to have to have a way of slowing down to get to the surface. We currenty use heat ablation to slow reentering spacecraft from orbital or translunar velocities.
How are people envisioning doing this with the SE?
If you are going to hitch a ride down the elevator, you are still going to have to slow way down and then grab on. How do you do this?
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Bob Munck
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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2006, 11:47:23 AM » |
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If you are going to hitch a ride down the elevator, you are still going to have to slow way down and then grab on. How do you do this? If the outer tip of an SE is going fast enough to throw a vehicle to Mars or the asteroids, then it is also moving as fast as a vehicle returning from there. That's the way orbits work. The problem is not slowing down or speeding up, it's being in the right place at the right time to grab the ribbon that is (momentarily) at that same position and velocity. I personally think we're more likely to use free-flying bolos (orbiting tethers rotating around their center, maybe at L4 or L5) to do the necessary capturing and momentum transfer. Trying to grab an SE seems just too time-, velocity-, and position-critical, and you only get one chance.
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The future arrives sooner than you expect, and in a different order.
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Information Police
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« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2006, 12:17:28 PM » |
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If the outer tip of an SE is going fast enough to throw a vehicle to Mars or the asteroids, then it is also moving as fast as a vehicle returning from there. But the outer tip of an SE won't be going fast enough to do that. The outer tip is at orbital velocity at GEO or else the whole thing won't work.
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Bob Munck
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« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2006, 12:37:49 PM » |
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But the outer tip of an SE won't be going fast enough to do that. The outer tip is at orbital velocity at GEO or else the whole thing won't work. No, the part of the SE that goes through GEO is at orbital velocity at GEO. That's why you can just let go there and drift around. Let go lower, and you fall away from the ribbon; you're in an orbit with apogee at the altitude where you let go and perigee lower than that. Let go higher and you rise away from the ribbon; you're in an orbit with perigee at the altitude where you let go and apogee higher than that. Let go high enough, and you don't have an apogee; you're going faster than escape velocity. Right at GEO, apogee and perigee are identical to your current position. Note that none of the SE is in orbit; the little piece of ribbon right at GEO just happens to coincide with geosynchronous orbit at that point. The outer tip of an SE (which may or may not be a counterweight), at anywhere from 50,000 to 120,000 km higher than GEO, is moving much, much faster than orbital velocity at that altitude. That's what holds the SE up -- centrifugal force on the mass of the SE above GEO exceeds gravitational force, so there's a net outward pull. I have a feeling that you're not entirely clear yet on what the SE looks like or how it works.
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The future arrives sooner than you expect, and in a different order.
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windemut
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« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2006, 12:53:32 PM » |
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If the outer tip of an SE is going fast enough to throw a vehicle to Mars or the asteroids, then it is also moving as fast as a vehicle returning from there. That's the way orbits work. The problem is not slowing down or speeding up, it's being in the right place at the right time to grab the ribbon that is (momentarily) at that same position and velocity.
I personally think we're more likely to use free-flying bolos (orbiting tethers rotating around their center, maybe at L4 or L5) to do the necessary capturing and momentum transfer. Trying to grab an SE seems just too time-, velocity-, and position-critical, and you only get one chance. Also, there is the option of atmospheric reentry. I think it is the simplest and safest, because it does not involve precision rendezvous. It is also well understood and has a large track record. Last not least, it is a lot faster. Andreas
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neil
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« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2006, 01:47:27 AM » |
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Hi informatiom police: Some easy arithmetic may help. If the radius of the SE is 100,000 miles (from the center of Earth to the tip) times 6.28 = 628,000 miles per day that the tip travels each day; divide by 24 = 26,166 miles per hour, which might be the speed of a returning space ship from Mars. That average speed would make the return travel time from Mars about 2000 hours = 83 days. I agree matching the direction, speed and instant of attachment may be almost umpossible, but the tip end of the SE is about 25 times faster than the anchor end, which rotates with Earth's equator at about 1041 miles per hour. Neil
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Information Police
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« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2006, 06:45:05 AM » |
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I have a feeling that you're not entirely clear yet on what the SE looks like or how it works.
I'm going to read more and post less. thanks for your patience.
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A_M_Swallow
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« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2006, 03:51:01 PM » |
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Also, there is the option of atmospheric reentry. I think it is the simplest and safest, because it does not involve precision rendezvous. It is also well understood and has a large track record. Last not least, it is a lot faster.
Andreas LEO to Earth may work but look at the problems returning moon missions have. The SE are catchable near GEO because a now orbiting spacecraft can have more than one go.
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Andrew Swallow
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neil
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« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2010, 05:39:26 PM » |
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I agree, more than one go at catching the SE at GEO, but perhaps that is true even much farther out toward the counter weight, if there are bolos at enough locations that you can catch a bolo tip before the next try. Bolo tips are not easy to catch either. A high speed collision at GEO can destroy the SE and space craft, but a collision near a puny counter weight at an altitude of 200,000 kilometers may allow repair of the SE. The SE tip travels about 1.3 million kilometers per day = 54,000 kilometers per hour at an altitude of 200,000 kilometers. 200,000 kilometers is possible for a tapered tether SE. The thin tip of the SE can be moved some to assist the attachment, but the thicker tether at GEO is more difficult to maneuver. Neil
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« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 06:58:01 PM by neil »
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A_M_Swallow
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« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2010, 06:57:46 PM » |
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I agree, more than one go at catching the tip of the SE at GEO, but perhaps that is true even much farther out toward the counter weight, if there are bolos at enough locations that you can catch a bolo tip before the next try. Bolo tips are not easy to catch either. A high speed collision at GEO can destroy the SE and space craft, but a collision near a puny counter weight at an altitude of 200,000 kilometers may allow repair of the SE. The SE tip travels about 1.3 million kilometers per day = 54,000 kilometers per hour at an altitude of 200,000 kilometers. 200,000 kilometers is possible for a tapered tether SE. Neil
At GEO you do not do a high speed capture but a low speed rendezvous. If the spaceship is in orbit a speed difference of 5 miles per hour is sufficient, same as parking a car.
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Andrew Swallow
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neil
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« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2010, 07:33:26 PM » |
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Transients traveling on the SE make the parking space jump around a bit, perhaps considerably, but I agree the jumping due to transients is much worse out near a puny counterweight. A bolo will have rare transients, if it is used rarely. The space craft will typically use a lot of fuel to slow to GEO speed, but it may need very little fuel to attach to the SE at much higher altitude. Most of the time the direction will be way off for both the SE and any available bolos. There does not appear to be much utility in either a bolo or SE for reattach. Worse, early SE will have no provision for down climbers to pass up climbers. Do you have an idea for passing? Neil
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Bob Munck
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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2010, 06:00:07 PM » |
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I disagree with the whole idea of using space elevators to go down from orbit to the surface. The major advantage of the SE is that the vehicle does not have to support and lift the unused fuel that it will need to go the rest of the way up. There is no equivalent advantage when going down; the biggest advantage to an SE there is the relatively minor one that you can descend arbitrarily slowly and with complete control. If I may add another slogan to Regulo's Rockets are Wrong! it would be SEs are for Up! For getting down, I think we'll use free-flying rotovators, throwing vehicles from one to another. For instance, rotovators above GEO, maybe at Earth-Moon L4 and L5, could capture things incoming from other planets; rotovators at GEO could capture vehicles thrown by the higher ones and throw them toward lower ones. Finally, rotovators in LEO could deposit vehicles and cargo containers at the top of the atmosphere with zero velocity relative to the surface, from where they could glide, parachute, or parasail down to their destination. I've become more sanguine about the problems of capturing a vehicle that's approaching the tip of a fast-rotating rotovator at a tangent. We will have these wonderfully strong, light cables made out of carbon nanotubes. Put a winch on the rotovator tip and fly a little docking connector out to the incoming vehicle on a smaller cable (smaller than the body of the rotovator) under its own power. That'll give it a much longer window of time to make the rendezvous, lock on, and winch in the slack.
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The future arrives sooner than you expect, and in a different order.
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Mladen Milinković
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« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2010, 08:55:43 AM » |
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That approach need absolute accuracy,allow no mistakes like rotovator malfunctions etc and with live people going down(in first couple of years mostly will people going down not alot or none othere weight)somehow dangeroues for mass traffic(more traffic more room for mistake).In later phases when elevator goes thousand tons range may be better to use SE to get that mass slowly to ground asspecialy when shipping thousend tons every couple ours.In theory such a large weight can be done with rotovators but in practice that mean alot of complication and economicaly greater costs.Rotovators are awesome idea for mobile space mining but for safety and wide area possible usages(like tourism) not my first choice.Maybe in pioneer days building and trying to faster increase capacity SE may be alowed rotovators for down traffic(99%mass "astrounats"+climber weight i think that term can stay in use if go that way) and use all ribbon threads for lifting cargo up,adding whole climber mass to counterweight.But except that purpose(adding more mass to counterweight)and reducing time for load(people)to get down to earth (that is why rotovators are so attractive not because people will go faster down ,more because we can then make space for additional weight to go up)there is no more viable reasons to go that way.I posted some ideas how can be done two way traffic in "like sky lifts"ribbon section , but stay correct statement that rotovators can make space for more cargo to go up eliminating mass going down(mens and their suplies mostly cant see anothere cargo need to go down for a long time,exept space minning afcourse,and that will go separate way from SE think,exept SE structures like ribbon net and facilities associated with net built at GEO can be used as ports for mining ships)but that going down mass will be in comparation with mass going up only very small part SE traffic so...,if we can make two way traffic without need to change climbers speed because of that,there is no real need for rotovators because using multhiribbon system we can always send up,ribbon will not be "time taken"only mass taken((mass climber(some kind of reduced capsule)+people for down traffic)) cons* system without rotovators:not all mass going counterweight,minor SE capacity decrease(less then 5%?),( when going down climbers also can repair and add ribon to SE)).
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« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 11:30:31 AM by Mladen Milinković »
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A_M_Swallow
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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2010, 12:08:59 PM » |
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{snip} Worse, early SE will have no provision for down climbers to pass up climbers. Do you have an idea for passing? Neil
This should be in one of the Ribbon threads rather than the Finance section. When we look for it we will not find it. For Passing build the ribbon in the same way a single lane road or single track railway is built. You have some double thickness sections. For the ribbon a short section with two cables. One of the climbers waits in the section until the other one has passed. The sections will be probably less than a mile long but the cables will need sufficient separation to prevent the solar arrays and mirrors from crashing into each other. I would place double sections at the Liftport ship(s), GEO spacestation and at Low Earth Orbit (LEO) interchange. There will be other passing sections as well. The Liftport and GEO sections allow one climber to be unloaded whilst a second is being loaded. The LEO interchange is where ascend climbers open their solar arrays. Below the interchange the wind will break open arrays so batteries or hydrogen engines be needed to provide power. The main sections on the ribbon will also need passing points. Since there are about 4 climbers on the ribbon four more passing points may be sufficient, possibly at 1 day intervals. With climbers ascending and descending simultaneously a more sophisticated weight control system will be needed to ensure that the ribbon does not break. | V#| | / \ / \#^ \ / \ / | |
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Andrew Swallow
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Mladen Milinković
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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2010, 01:20:42 PM » |
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I I I I I I I I -between 2 line conect laverage I - Y reverse(with backup in case 1.reverse Y break) I I Duo model(tether resistant to tangling ,will dump I I oscilation) I I I I
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